Ian, thanks for writing this! I feel that tension between third wave and fourth wave acutely. Much of my journey of incorporating fourth wave thought comes from Eugene Peterson; I especially like his distinction of "Spiritual Theology" in "Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places." He writes in the introduction: "'Spiritual' keeps 'theology' from degenerating into merely thinking and talking and writing about God at a distance. 'Theology' keeps 'spiritual' from becoming merely thinking and talking and writing about the feelings and thoughts one has about God."
Thanks Drew. I definitely feel that. I haven't read much Peterson but I've had that same thought about spirituality/theology, particularly after reading a bunch of Rolheiser.
Very well said regarding the ditches of the fourth Wave. One way to think of it: Though each wave has added something good, the waves also have a built-in temptation to swing the pendulum from what I call "religion of heaven" (gnostic) to "religion of earth" (pagan) and then back again--from the temptation toward disembodiment to the temptation toward over-embodiment and vice versa. Whereas Christianity is always the marriage of heaven and earth.
Wave 1: Spirit-Filled Worship - great worship but tempts toward disembodied spiritual formation
Wave 2: Seeker Sensitive Church Growth - re-embodies the church in the act of evangelism but is tempted to forget the place of the mind, especially when it comes to guarding key doctrines
Wave 3: Gospel Centrality - reclaims the core doctrines of the church, but perhaps with the temptation of forgetting the centrality of embodied obedience to Christ.
Wave 4: Spiritual Formation - re-embodies obedience to Christ, though perhaps at the expense of... etc.
I think some of this zig-zag is going on. But I also think there's another way to read the above "waves" in which EACH of Wave 1, 2, & 3 had a mostly--and increasingly--disembodying effect on our evangelical churches (especially since they all occurred in the growing age of the internet). So, in that sense, the movement of which Comer is an advocate and spokesperson is essentially new and probably very necessary right now.
But I still grant your pitfalls. For myself, I tend to think we Evangelicals are coming to the end of a "Joseph Movement" (where partnership with Egypt was fruitful and blessed) and coming to the beginning of a "Moses Movement" (where partnership with Egypt, especially the new online Egpyt, has made us all slaves). And, of course, this means we're headed into a bit of wilderness first. But yeah, that's my take.
This is a great synopsis. I first attended The Way (JMC’s original college ministry) back in 2006 (!!!) and have seen him grow and his theology evolve considerably, but when I think about someone who is “dropped” right into his Practicing the Way content, I do get nervous. My faith too has been deeply shaped by JMC, but I’ve also seen how exclusionary his communities can be in practice, and that worries me, too. No real conclusions here, I just appreciate that you’re highlighting how influential his teachings have become and why we need to continue to think critically about influence in evangelical spaces - his and others!
Wow, that's amazing. As someone coming at this from a distance (Texas, no less!) I've wondered what things are like from a more on the ground perspective. I think JMC's work is probably best understood from a place of sure-footed gospel-assurance and some theological knowledge. I'm right there with you. If someone is dropped in with no prior context or instruction, there might be some things missed that need to be taught at some point down the road.
Hey Ian, I ran across this post and found it super interesting and very well written.
I can relate to much that you shared...I spent my last few years as a protestant pastor working in the early fringe/shadows of what is now becoming "wave 4". I think a lot of us who were planting churches during the past decade were being led in the same direction as Comer; spiritual formation, the richness of liturgical prayer & worship, etc etc etc. For me, the journey continued into the Orthodox Church, and a holistic shift in the way I follow Jesus. Like you, I found Comer's work to be a huge confirmation I was heading in the right direction, and he is still the first author I recommend to disillusioned evangelical folks. For me, Comer was a catalyst; after Comer I read Willard, after I read Willard, I started reading the Fathers, and the rest as they say, is history...
I guess the question that has been burning in my mind as I read your post (and honestly it's something I think about a lot) is this: What do you think "Wave 5" looks like?
PS - from an Orthodox perspective, your 5 suggestions seem spot on. A big 'amen' to all 5 of them! Anyway, I look forward to your thoughts and to reading more of your work; I'm glad to have stumbled across your substack.
"if you spend your time talking about spiritual formation and aren’t doing the things that spiritually form you, you’re spinning your wheels."
This resonates. This has been my biggest personal struggle with how people interpret the Gospel-Centered movement. Preachers with no application to their message: "the Holy Spirit will show our people how to be" or "abide in Jesus more" without any context for what that means.
Fantastic article. I was 11 years old when I started going to solid rock when it was meeting at conestoga middle school in the 2000s. I was there when it moved to the bigger building.
From my earliest understandings of him, John Mark was always a guy who had a cause and he’s amazing at explaining that cause. I’m glad that God uses his ability to communicate for good. Sometimes his stuff can come across as overly prescriptive. But that’s not his issue as much as it is my lack of desire to wake up at 5am ride my bike to work and be a modern day monk. Ultimately, he is a positive force in the church and I have grown from his perspective and do practice many of the things he prescribes. I do wish he was more doctrinally pointed at times because it can have the feel of ambiguity at times. But I know he holds to the important things.
Brilliantly put. I love Comer and so was most intrigued but I could not agree more that we need balance and we need shore up the gaps. Thank you for caring about the church.
I appreciate that you did not disparage Comer or straw man him but rather sought to steelman and present a fair and honest way he is interpreted. That is wonderful and refreshing
You bring a great point. John Mark Comer has been a huge essential part of my deconstruction journey. I love Keller also. I think, like you said, there’s a way of balancing the two constructively, because it’s important to include the word and the gospel, and not just practicing the way. I loved this read and the way you broke it down. Thank you for sharing, Ian.
Drew and I appreciated this post, Ian. I VERY MUCH appreciate Comer, This Cultural Moment pod with Mark Sayers was a big deal for us. I think some of what I'm trying to articulate is the California, wellness vibes that pop up once in a while when I hear him talk about the practices. ie the fasting series, talk of physical benefits, cold plunging, etc. No real conclusions, but I'm paying attention, overall grateful for his work, and appreciate this conversation.
Thank you so much. I am caught in exactly that place of Comerism vs Kellerism in my community. This encourages me that they can work together as I thought.
This is a god-send! Lately, I have been stumbling upon think-pieces outright bashing Comer’s teachings. I personally can testify that the Practising the Way course left me with so much to reflect on my current relationship with the Lord and ways in which I can develop consistency through intentional and somewhat structured practices.
Another thing worth noting is that his mentions
of the Desert and Church fathers convinced me to read up on the richness of church history and establishing what is Biblical theology and what isn’t. (I’m still reeling from my experiences with the “prosperity gospel”).
Beautifully written and poignant as more and more people become exposed to his teachings and his perspectives. It’s so easy to look at these shiny things and forget about the key points (Jesus). Thanks for sharing
Thanks for writing a very thoughtful and well-nuanced take! I feel like I've encountered very pro- or anti- Comer camps in my own life recently, and I appreciate a thoughtful analysis of all that he has to offer, while recognizing some of the pitfalls.
Ian, thanks for writing this! I feel that tension between third wave and fourth wave acutely. Much of my journey of incorporating fourth wave thought comes from Eugene Peterson; I especially like his distinction of "Spiritual Theology" in "Christ Plays in Ten Thousand Places." He writes in the introduction: "'Spiritual' keeps 'theology' from degenerating into merely thinking and talking and writing about God at a distance. 'Theology' keeps 'spiritual' from becoming merely thinking and talking and writing about the feelings and thoughts one has about God."
Thanks Drew. I definitely feel that. I haven't read much Peterson but I've had that same thought about spirituality/theology, particularly after reading a bunch of Rolheiser.
Very well said regarding the ditches of the fourth Wave. One way to think of it: Though each wave has added something good, the waves also have a built-in temptation to swing the pendulum from what I call "religion of heaven" (gnostic) to "religion of earth" (pagan) and then back again--from the temptation toward disembodiment to the temptation toward over-embodiment and vice versa. Whereas Christianity is always the marriage of heaven and earth.
Wave 1: Spirit-Filled Worship - great worship but tempts toward disembodied spiritual formation
Wave 2: Seeker Sensitive Church Growth - re-embodies the church in the act of evangelism but is tempted to forget the place of the mind, especially when it comes to guarding key doctrines
Wave 3: Gospel Centrality - reclaims the core doctrines of the church, but perhaps with the temptation of forgetting the centrality of embodied obedience to Christ.
Wave 4: Spiritual Formation - re-embodies obedience to Christ, though perhaps at the expense of... etc.
I think some of this zig-zag is going on. But I also think there's another way to read the above "waves" in which EACH of Wave 1, 2, & 3 had a mostly--and increasingly--disembodying effect on our evangelical churches (especially since they all occurred in the growing age of the internet). So, in that sense, the movement of which Comer is an advocate and spokesperson is essentially new and probably very necessary right now.
But I still grant your pitfalls. For myself, I tend to think we Evangelicals are coming to the end of a "Joseph Movement" (where partnership with Egypt was fruitful and blessed) and coming to the beginning of a "Moses Movement" (where partnership with Egypt, especially the new online Egpyt, has made us all slaves). And, of course, this means we're headed into a bit of wilderness first. But yeah, that's my take.
That's a fantastic way of looking at it. I'm going to think about this alot.
This is a great synopsis. I first attended The Way (JMC’s original college ministry) back in 2006 (!!!) and have seen him grow and his theology evolve considerably, but when I think about someone who is “dropped” right into his Practicing the Way content, I do get nervous. My faith too has been deeply shaped by JMC, but I’ve also seen how exclusionary his communities can be in practice, and that worries me, too. No real conclusions here, I just appreciate that you’re highlighting how influential his teachings have become and why we need to continue to think critically about influence in evangelical spaces - his and others!
Wow, that's amazing. As someone coming at this from a distance (Texas, no less!) I've wondered what things are like from a more on the ground perspective. I think JMC's work is probably best understood from a place of sure-footed gospel-assurance and some theological knowledge. I'm right there with you. If someone is dropped in with no prior context or instruction, there might be some things missed that need to be taught at some point down the road.
Hey Ian, I ran across this post and found it super interesting and very well written.
I can relate to much that you shared...I spent my last few years as a protestant pastor working in the early fringe/shadows of what is now becoming "wave 4". I think a lot of us who were planting churches during the past decade were being led in the same direction as Comer; spiritual formation, the richness of liturgical prayer & worship, etc etc etc. For me, the journey continued into the Orthodox Church, and a holistic shift in the way I follow Jesus. Like you, I found Comer's work to be a huge confirmation I was heading in the right direction, and he is still the first author I recommend to disillusioned evangelical folks. For me, Comer was a catalyst; after Comer I read Willard, after I read Willard, I started reading the Fathers, and the rest as they say, is history...
I guess the question that has been burning in my mind as I read your post (and honestly it's something I think about a lot) is this: What do you think "Wave 5" looks like?
PS - from an Orthodox perspective, your 5 suggestions seem spot on. A big 'amen' to all 5 of them! Anyway, I look forward to your thoughts and to reading more of your work; I'm glad to have stumbled across your substack.
Blessings to you!
Thanks for this comment, Jereme. While I'm still a convicted Protestant, I resonate with what you're saying a lot.
As for Wave 5? No idea. I don't think the wave 4 tide is even close to being all the way in yet, so we have a long way to go.
"if you spend your time talking about spiritual formation and aren’t doing the things that spiritually form you, you’re spinning your wheels."
This resonates. This has been my biggest personal struggle with how people interpret the Gospel-Centered movement. Preachers with no application to their message: "the Holy Spirit will show our people how to be" or "abide in Jesus more" without any context for what that means.
Yup. Which is why wave 3 needs wave 4!
Fantastic article. I was 11 years old when I started going to solid rock when it was meeting at conestoga middle school in the 2000s. I was there when it moved to the bigger building.
From my earliest understandings of him, John Mark was always a guy who had a cause and he’s amazing at explaining that cause. I’m glad that God uses his ability to communicate for good. Sometimes his stuff can come across as overly prescriptive. But that’s not his issue as much as it is my lack of desire to wake up at 5am ride my bike to work and be a modern day monk. Ultimately, he is a positive force in the church and I have grown from his perspective and do practice many of the things he prescribes. I do wish he was more doctrinally pointed at times because it can have the feel of ambiguity at times. But I know he holds to the important things.
Brilliantly put. I love Comer and so was most intrigued but I could not agree more that we need balance and we need shore up the gaps. Thank you for caring about the church.
I appreciate that you did not disparage Comer or straw man him but rather sought to steelman and present a fair and honest way he is interpreted. That is wonderful and refreshing
You bring a great point. John Mark Comer has been a huge essential part of my deconstruction journey. I love Keller also. I think, like you said, there’s a way of balancing the two constructively, because it’s important to include the word and the gospel, and not just practicing the way. I loved this read and the way you broke it down. Thank you for sharing, Ian.
Drew and I appreciated this post, Ian. I VERY MUCH appreciate Comer, This Cultural Moment pod with Mark Sayers was a big deal for us. I think some of what I'm trying to articulate is the California, wellness vibes that pop up once in a while when I hear him talk about the practices. ie the fasting series, talk of physical benefits, cold plunging, etc. No real conclusions, but I'm paying attention, overall grateful for his work, and appreciate this conversation.
Right there with you on all this. Thanks for saying this!
Thank you so much. I am caught in exactly that place of Comerism vs Kellerism in my community. This encourages me that they can work together as I thought.
I'm so glad!
This was really good
This is a god-send! Lately, I have been stumbling upon think-pieces outright bashing Comer’s teachings. I personally can testify that the Practising the Way course left me with so much to reflect on my current relationship with the Lord and ways in which I can develop consistency through intentional and somewhat structured practices.
Another thing worth noting is that his mentions
of the Desert and Church fathers convinced me to read up on the richness of church history and establishing what is Biblical theology and what isn’t. (I’m still reeling from my experiences with the “prosperity gospel”).
Amazingly well said and congratulations on your book and helping us fill in some extremely important gaps.
Beautifully written and poignant as more and more people become exposed to his teachings and his perspectives. It’s so easy to look at these shiny things and forget about the key points (Jesus). Thanks for sharing
Thanks for writing a very thoughtful and well-nuanced take! I feel like I've encountered very pro- or anti- Comer camps in my own life recently, and I appreciate a thoughtful analysis of all that he has to offer, while recognizing some of the pitfalls.
Overlap is where it’s at! Good stuff.