I loved your piece! I found myself nodding in approval and delight—until I got to that final section.
Two quick "frown moments" for me here. First, this: "This is why some people talk about 'leaving the church to find Jesus' even though that's categorically impossible." I would think that's categorically impossible if we understand "church" as the community of believers. But is it "categorically impossible" for someone to have faith in Jesus without a "local church"? Consider a missionary who goes to a wholly Muslim island in Indonesia or to an Embera community on the Pacific coast of Colombia, where a single person decides to convert. That person, taking on enormous social and communal risk, has no local church to attend. Is it categorically impossible for her to find Jesus witout a church? Or think of someone who leaves the Catholic Church in a Latin American town because she found (a different understanding of) Jesus and has no Evangelical church to attend. Categorically impossible again? I'd love to hear your thoughts on these scenarios.
And the second "frown moment": "the people who left the church to join the culture." Is the implication that there are just two possible scenarios: church vs. culture? What about those who leave their church to join the Bruderhof or to live a semi-monastic life focused on Bible study and community service? These people aren't leaving the church to embrace "the" culture—they're taking another path entirely.
This is great Federico. I think we agree more than not. Let me try to clarify.
#1. I think we’re in agreement. The examples you have are of people who “found Jesus and are looking for the church” which I think is a very real category. Obviously, the church in China and Iran look very different than in the West. That doesn’t make it less of a church.
What I had in mind more were those who “left the church to find Jesus”, which I just don’t think you can do. You can’t leave behind Christs body and bride and find him.
#2. I’ll comment less on this because frankly, I’m not as knowledgeable on these as I would like to be. I’ll say this though: those communal expressions have far more in common with a local church than the hyper-individualistic, spiritual-but-not-religious folks who “leave the church to find Jesus.” Those are fundamentally different postures of the heart and actions. I don’t think they’re categorically the same thing.
These distinctions are clear in my mind but maybe I did t do a good enough job making them in the piece. I hope this clarifies at least a little.
Thank you for this helpful clarification, Ian. Yes, I think we're in strong agreement on many points, and your response helps me better understand the specific scenarios you had in mind.
I see you're focusing on what happens in Western, church-rich settings when someone leaves the church (as Christ's bride) in their purported quest to find Jesus. The distinction between rejecting Christ's body versus seeking new expressions of it seems complex, especially given how differently we might define "rejection" versus "reformation" or "renewal." My experience of religion across quite different contexts—Jerusalem, Latin American Liberation Theology, Evangelical churches in Puerto Rico, Catholic Church in New Orleans—has shown me how the same theological terms can carry quite different meanings in different settings. So I'm not trying to be overly picky in dissecting these key terms; rather, these diverse experiences naturally lead me to explore these categories. Thank you for your patience here.
I appreciate how you note that communal expressions have more common ground with local churches than with individualistic "spiritual-but-not-religious" approaches. While I don't see spirituality (especially New Age spirituality) as the natural exit ramp for a deconstructionist, I see your point. Thanks for engaging so thoughtfully with my questions.
I want to emphasize again how much I enjoyed your post—that striking statistic about the jump in Bible sales has already sparked several good conversations.
I was saved back in '88 by borrowing from a church library and reading an Ironside commentary on Galatians and Ephesians. Prior to this, I attended church gatherings between 2 and 3 times a week for just over 3 months and so hungry for answers and thirsty for God that I was trying to earn my salvation. Had God not led me to the commentary, He alone knows how much longer it would have taken to hear a clear, comprehensive, and saving gospel presentation from the pulpit or in a Sunday school class. With all due respect and love for the SBC, these were SBC churches and the SBC has always been one of the fastest growing for a long time to the best of my knowledge. I'm still scratching my head and very thankful that I know how to read!!!!!
I found that reported piece on Bible sales so interesting, but I also read the Publisher’s Weekly trades and it doesn’t look like the fulcrum of that shift has been reached quite yet. I’ve seen a few book proposals on witchcraft sold in just the last few weeks.
This article points to something that has always annoyed me about both atheist and Christian commentary about religion: the miss the forest for the trees. Spiritual and supernatural belief always has been, and continues to be, the majority position. That remains true, even as people disaffiliate from organized religion. What we miss is that they are often joining new and proto-religions.
Fascinating piece, and something I'm observing in real time here in Boone.
I loved your piece! I found myself nodding in approval and delight—until I got to that final section.
Two quick "frown moments" for me here. First, this: "This is why some people talk about 'leaving the church to find Jesus' even though that's categorically impossible." I would think that's categorically impossible if we understand "church" as the community of believers. But is it "categorically impossible" for someone to have faith in Jesus without a "local church"? Consider a missionary who goes to a wholly Muslim island in Indonesia or to an Embera community on the Pacific coast of Colombia, where a single person decides to convert. That person, taking on enormous social and communal risk, has no local church to attend. Is it categorically impossible for her to find Jesus witout a church? Or think of someone who leaves the Catholic Church in a Latin American town because she found (a different understanding of) Jesus and has no Evangelical church to attend. Categorically impossible again? I'd love to hear your thoughts on these scenarios.
And the second "frown moment": "the people who left the church to join the culture." Is the implication that there are just two possible scenarios: church vs. culture? What about those who leave their church to join the Bruderhof or to live a semi-monastic life focused on Bible study and community service? These people aren't leaving the church to embrace "the" culture—they're taking another path entirely.
Thanks again for a wonderful piece!
This is great Federico. I think we agree more than not. Let me try to clarify.
#1. I think we’re in agreement. The examples you have are of people who “found Jesus and are looking for the church” which I think is a very real category. Obviously, the church in China and Iran look very different than in the West. That doesn’t make it less of a church.
What I had in mind more were those who “left the church to find Jesus”, which I just don’t think you can do. You can’t leave behind Christs body and bride and find him.
#2. I’ll comment less on this because frankly, I’m not as knowledgeable on these as I would like to be. I’ll say this though: those communal expressions have far more in common with a local church than the hyper-individualistic, spiritual-but-not-religious folks who “leave the church to find Jesus.” Those are fundamentally different postures of the heart and actions. I don’t think they’re categorically the same thing.
These distinctions are clear in my mind but maybe I did t do a good enough job making them in the piece. I hope this clarifies at least a little.
Thank you for this helpful clarification, Ian. Yes, I think we're in strong agreement on many points, and your response helps me better understand the specific scenarios you had in mind.
I see you're focusing on what happens in Western, church-rich settings when someone leaves the church (as Christ's bride) in their purported quest to find Jesus. The distinction between rejecting Christ's body versus seeking new expressions of it seems complex, especially given how differently we might define "rejection" versus "reformation" or "renewal." My experience of religion across quite different contexts—Jerusalem, Latin American Liberation Theology, Evangelical churches in Puerto Rico, Catholic Church in New Orleans—has shown me how the same theological terms can carry quite different meanings in different settings. So I'm not trying to be overly picky in dissecting these key terms; rather, these diverse experiences naturally lead me to explore these categories. Thank you for your patience here.
I appreciate how you note that communal expressions have more common ground with local churches than with individualistic "spiritual-but-not-religious" approaches. While I don't see spirituality (especially New Age spirituality) as the natural exit ramp for a deconstructionist, I see your point. Thanks for engaging so thoughtfully with my questions.
I want to emphasize again how much I enjoyed your post—that striking statistic about the jump in Bible sales has already sparked several good conversations.
I appreciate this, Federico. Thanks for engaging with it.
I was saved back in '88 by borrowing from a church library and reading an Ironside commentary on Galatians and Ephesians. Prior to this, I attended church gatherings between 2 and 3 times a week for just over 3 months and so hungry for answers and thirsty for God that I was trying to earn my salvation. Had God not led me to the commentary, He alone knows how much longer it would have taken to hear a clear, comprehensive, and saving gospel presentation from the pulpit or in a Sunday school class. With all due respect and love for the SBC, these were SBC churches and the SBC has always been one of the fastest growing for a long time to the best of my knowledge. I'm still scratching my head and very thankful that I know how to read!!!!!
I found that reported piece on Bible sales so interesting, but I also read the Publisher’s Weekly trades and it doesn’t look like the fulcrum of that shift has been reached quite yet. I’ve seen a few book proposals on witchcraft sold in just the last few weeks.
This article points to something that has always annoyed me about both atheist and Christian commentary about religion: the miss the forest for the trees. Spiritual and supernatural belief always has been, and continues to be, the majority position. That remains true, even as people disaffiliate from organized religion. What we miss is that they are often joining new and proto-religions.